*Definition of Canon: “In fiction, canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in the fictional universe of that story.”
Back in 2017 James Cameron and Tim Miller sat down to discuss the future of the Terminator franchise, the event, hosted by The Hollywood Reporter, gave the Terminator creator and the Deadpool director a chance to lay their cards on the table about plans for a sixth installment in the legendary science fiction saga.
What the event gave to fans was the news that Terminator 3: ROTM, Terminator Salvation and Terminator Genisys were set to be ignored by the new movie; a movie which would pick up directly after Terminator 2: Judgment Day.
James Cameron told THR at the event that:
“This is a continuation of the story from Terminator 1 and Terminator 2. And we’re pretending the other films were a bad dream. Or an alternate timeline, which is permissible in our multi-verse.”
James Cameron told THR
This decision seemed to be somewhat of a blessing, both to the creatives behind Terminator: Dark Fate and to Terminator Fans, as it afforded the latest installment a modicum of freedom based on the opportunity to avoid, and ignore, aspects of the previous sequels which couldn’t be easily explained away; would create more messy continuity issues in future and might prevent the resurrection of beloved characters.
James Cameron stated:
“So when David Ellison came to me and said, “Let’s do another one,” I said, “All right, but I don’t want to have to deal with reconciling all this [stuff] that happened in between. Can we just go back to ‘Terminator 2’ and carry on that timeline?” He said, “Yeah, that sounds great.”’
James Cameron to NYT
It does sound nice, doesn’t it? All the bits you might not like, simply erased from the timeline and removed from canon…
Even if you liked one of those previous installments – did you like it enough to muster up some anger at that decision?
Maybe you liked them all. Did you like them enough to resent Terminator 6 for wiping them away? The answer was a resounding no, and who would have blamed you? The return of James Cameron, Arnold Schwarzenegger AND Linda Hamilton… I mean, whew! That’s some good sh*t.
James Cameron, Tim Miller, and (Skydance Media head honcho) David Ellison, had created the first real bubbles of anticipation within the entire Terminator fanbase (and the prospective movie-going audience at large) for a very long time. Though, that manoeuvre, that very act of cherry-picking what to keep or throw away, may in fact have created something which will haunt the Terminator franchise forever.
There is no fate but what we make for ourselves.
Hello petard – this is your hoist calling…
Say what you will about Terminator 3, it very much intended to be a sequel to Terminator 2. The same could be said of Terminator Salvation; it fully intended to be a sequel to Terminator 3.
The problems began with Terminator Genisys – the reboot in reboot’s clothing. Terminator Genisys chose to, almost completely, replicate scenes from the first two movies, all whilst claiming not to be a remake. It cherry-picked the iconic moments as if discarding what came before it. As if trying on The Terminator’s clothes for size.
Terminator Genisys (a Skydance and Paramount project) actively ignored Terminator 3 and Salvation. Yet in its imitation of the first two movies it rewrote the lore of the franchise – before Dark Fate was even an idea. In the timeline of Genisys Terminator 2 and beyond, never happened.
When the fifth installment in the Terminator franchise lost its footing, with fans and critics alike, the two movie studios had to regroup, Genisys 2.0 wasn’t going to happen, there simply wasn’t enough of an audience for it.
Back in October 2015, Terminator Genisys producer Dana Goldberg stated of the future of the Genisys trilogy, that:
“I wouldn’t say on hold, so much as re-adjusting,”
Dana Goldberg told The Wrap
… which takes us back to the THR event back in 2017, and the promise of ignorant bliss which started the ball really a’rolling…
Tim Miller on the last three Terminator movies (3,4 & 5):
“The last movie was not good. Wait, I shouldn’t say that. There have been some… misfires,”
Tim Miller told Total Film
The logic behind the promise, behind the – looking down on the movies which followed the first glorious two – is that it’s subjective, and placatory, it’s intended as a sales pitch on one hand, and the other… ?
James Cameron doesn’t like three, four and five. Tim Miller doesn’t like three, four and five. The fans are split on three, four and five… therefore, for the sake of expedient productivity – delete them. NOW!
‘Ahh‘, you ask, ‘but what about time travel and alternate timelines?‘ – at SDCC 2019, Tim Miller stated:
“I feel like time travel with multiple realities loses some stakes. If you can change time and it can be anything and it can be multiple or alternate timelines, I feel like you lose a little bit of the dramatic stakes. So in the Terminator universe, there is only one timeline. If you change something in the past, the time wave rolls forward and changes the future.
Tim Miller told SDCC
The decanonization of the three movies brings about the opportunity to simply throw away, or erase, any installment that doesn’t fit the current narrative or social agenda (it’s okay to acknowledge that agendas exist without becoming a ‘go woke go broke’r or an SJW – don’t panic) – anything which doesn’t work within the chosen rebooted framework can effectively now be removed.
Past, present, future. Good, bad, indifferent. Eeny, meeny, miny, moe…
As Terminator Fans, haven’t we all been choosing, person to person, whether certain movies are canon in our own version of the franchise… ? Well, now the studios will be determining that for us.
Didn’t we all ask for this? Wasn’t this what we all wanted?
Tim Miller told TIFF back in 2019:
“This is, in theory, the direct sequel to Terminator 2 – I know all those other movies are swimming around in your head… forget them. They didn’t happen. They’re gone.”
Tim Miller told TIFF | Transcribed by TheTerminatorFans.com
So, by the very logic given to us by Skydance Media and Paramount Pictures etc… Terminator: Dark Fate doesn’t exist – because it wasn’t successful with its intended audience. It failed domestically. It bombed at the box office and the fans are divided over it…
Result: It isn’t canon because, now, it’s all disposable.
Leave a comment…
16 Comments
There’s no way I’d accept Dark Fate as canon. It actually had some terrific ideas – but the execution was utterly poor. The world has moved on – so the saviour and the threat would be different. Great…but not like that!
Linda Hamilton deserved so much better. 🙁
Right! She was such a bad ass in the T2 and I was expecting that same, strong, determined attitude. But all we got was an alcoholic grandma.
What did you think about the T-800 being married?
We need prequel to Terminator 2, it will be true canon. Besides, James made some interesting ideas in his drawings.
Yes there were things wrong with Dark Fate! But it’s the only Terminator film that FELT like a Terminator film. I’d rather watch DF over 3,4,5 which made the terminator series a joke.
I completely understand what James was trying to do with the universe. But y’all can’t get over the fact that Sarah DESTROYED skynet in T2 which means no future skynet war.
Beyond what has or has not happened with the franchise, I wanted to comment: In Dark Fate the producers had to make a continuation (the death of John Connor) because otherwise all the films would be the same, the problem is that many fans want to see and I have heard them say, the war in the future that JIM CAMERON and STAN WINSTON developed in Flashbacks in T1 and T2 on trial day, T4 SALVATION was not bad, there were new models of robots, the problem is that it lacked more color (the graphic of the film was very gray) and they lack better posters to present the film, personally I liked things about each film, Rise of the machines I liked the TX, T1 the robot that appears at the end, T-2 It’s good in general, Terminator Genesis seemed entertaining and they left the time machine on at the end, which justifies that time can be altered unless they turn off that machine, and Dark Fate is good on T-Rev 9, I liked the battle of the plane, and until the robot is thrown into the turbine, maybe just add a little light and color and show the effects more, as in the movie matrix reload and Deadpool 1, I found this video of DARK FATE where the effects are better appreciated, the action stops and we can appreciate better, the robot models, and the designs of the ship of the future, (there is a tour in the video). One thing that did not help the film much was that many scenes were too dark and fast (very fast) which did not allow us to appreciate and enjoy visual delight elements Grace and Arnold’s clothing colors the clothing style was not very good or very colorful, except for Grace’s soldier outfit in the future, her hair might have been brighter, like the Sarah Connor from T2. And those were the things that I liked and not about the movies. And other important elements: the resemblance of actors between films, is another thing that ensures continuity. In the next films the Filmakers could add Patrick and Joshua Schwarzeneger.
Maybe the producers could make a film where they make fight Robocop and Predators versus Aliens and Terminators. Something like Aliens versus Cyborgs. That would be a great battle !!!
I feel like you forgot the best Miller quote:
“We were talking about this before (Miller and Cameron).The story that Jim would have told had he made a Terminator 3 in 1998, or 2000, or 2005, is different than this story, so I feel like it’s not just necessarily the continuation of that story, it’s the continuation of that story now…” (Hollywood Reporter, 2017)
To me, that means Cameron would have made a more traditional Terminator film that utilized the classic mythology. It would have been pure brand Terminator. You can bet that means John Connor wouldn’t have been killed in the opening scene.
“Make a great movie, don’t fuck up!” – James Cameron (Hollywood Reporter, 2017)
It sounds like you’re implying Cameron proposed the idea of killing John in the first 5 minutes on purpose, knowing that fans wouldn’t have liked it & that it would hurt Dark Fate’s chances at the box office even more. It makes about as much sense as him going back on his contention with killing off fan favorite main characters in a sequel, a la Alien 3.
DF fue una buena pelicula que tuvo sus momentos, pero esta bien que no se canon.
Pero eso de estar reiniciando la franquisia a cada rato aleja a nuevos fans de la saga.
Espero que hagan mejor las cosas
Y que apuesten a una nueva pelicula
Que se tomen un tiempo para idear una excelente pelicula.
I believe that all films are canon, they all have something new, creative and redeemable to see, the problem was that ideas from 1, 2, 3, and 4 were repeated, the t-3000, the structure or the design of the android It is very good, the problem it had: it was very similar to the t-1000, the rev-9 is good the exoskeleton is different and very hard but it is very similar to the TX. Marcus Wright and Grace are very similar too. I think the HARVESTER , the SPIDER TANK, the HUNTER KILLERS, the HIDROBOTS, the MOTOTERMINATORS, the T-1 are excellent but it seems to me that they were little shown in the films. Maybe they should combine these models with each other and generate new ones. It gives for much more since They have a mechanical and Heavy design. Read the GHOST RIDER 2099 comics that character is also a TERMINATOR.
I almost forgot to mention the Dragonfly from Terminator Dark Fate is great too !!!!
I had another idea, but it must be with 2 movies. And if you make a movie that connects TERMINATOR GENYSIS with DARK FATE? And you make one more movie that is located after DARK FATE? What could be the final chapter?
To me SCC and DF are clerly ELSEWORLD stories. Like the Dark Horse comis series and stuff like that. I loved the style of DF al ot, but I was pretty dissapointed of many aspects story telling wise.
So, we’re back to where we were after Genisys. Movie sucked, uncertain future for the franchise, even less people seem to care.
Agreed. In the first few minutes of the film, I totally lost all hope. I felt like we all failed. The primary objective was to keep John and Sarah Connor alive and safe for the future of mankind. How can you have a Terminator universe in which John Connor is dead? How can you have a Terminator universe in which Skynet doesn’t exist? How can you have anyone from the future not know who John or Sarah Connor are? It was a highly disappointing movie and it should be added to the scrap heap along with the sequel to A Christmas Story.
For my money, T3 was the best of the non-Cameron sequels. Better than Dark Fate by a wide margin (which is interesting because Dark Fate seemed to replicate or re-make a lot of concepts introduced in T3).
Salvation was okay. Good aesthetically and tonally, but problems existed in the script that were never resolved.
Yeah…Terminator movies work in descending order for me.
They all have moments of fun, but Dark Fate just fell apart for my in the last 3rd.